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	<title>Comments on: Tax-Adjusted Asset Allocation</title>
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		<title>By: Dylan</title>
		<link>http://www.obliviousinvestor.com/tax-adjusted-asset-allocation/comment-page-1/#comment-2195</link>
		<dc:creator>Dylan</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 09 Aug 2009 19:41:13 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.obliviousinvestor.com/?p=5014#comment-2195</guid>
		<description>Mike, I get where you&#039;re coming from, but that deferred tax is a future liability, no matter how you&#039;re allocated.   You can think of tax-deferral as a loan.  While you have it, it&#039;s yours to benefit from it for as long as you have it.  Then you pay it back according to the agreed upon terms in the future.  It&#039;s really not that different from any other leverage that allows  you to keep more money in an account, like a home mortgage.  Yes it&#039;s structured differently, but it&#039;s still money you can use for an extended term.

If your desired allocation is 60/40 and you adjust so you end up being closer to 50/50, your long-term returns will reflect a 50/50 allocation and then, sometime in the future, you pay taxes.  If you don&#039;t adjust, your long-term returns will reflect the 60/40 allocation and then, sometime in the future, you pay taxes.

Also (and I think this probably one of the most compelling arguments), by adjusting as you proposed, you are essentially deciding to account for and invest a separate pool of funds specifically to meet  far-off, future tax liabilities from retirement account distributions 100% in bonds.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Mike, I get where you&#8217;re coming from, but that deferred tax is a future liability, no matter how you&#8217;re allocated.   You can think of tax-deferral as a loan.  While you have it, it&#8217;s yours to benefit from it for as long as you have it.  Then you pay it back according to the agreed upon terms in the future.  It&#8217;s really not that different from any other leverage that allows  you to keep more money in an account, like a home mortgage.  Yes it&#8217;s structured differently, but it&#8217;s still money you can use for an extended term.</p>
<p>If your desired allocation is 60/40 and you adjust so you end up being closer to 50/50, your long-term returns will reflect a 50/50 allocation and then, sometime in the future, you pay taxes.  If you don&#8217;t adjust, your long-term returns will reflect the 60/40 allocation and then, sometime in the future, you pay taxes.</p>
<p>Also (and I think this probably one of the most compelling arguments), by adjusting as you proposed, you are essentially deciding to account for and invest a separate pool of funds specifically to meet  far-off, future tax liabilities from retirement account distributions 100% in bonds.</p>
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		<title>By: Mike</title>
		<link>http://www.obliviousinvestor.com/tax-adjusted-asset-allocation/comment-page-1/#comment-2193</link>
		<dc:creator>Mike</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 08 Aug 2009 20:15:48 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.obliviousinvestor.com/?p=5014#comment-2193</guid>
		<description>Dylan, you say that &quot;the detriment is multiple decades of actual exposure to a different risk/return profile than what was actually intended.&quot;

As far as I can tell, that&#039;s precisely the detriment of &lt;i&gt;not&lt;/i&gt; tax adjusting.

To me, if an investor expects a 25% tax bracket in retirement, then that means that he only benefits to the extent of 75% of the assets in his 401k. It seems to me that it follows that he must adjust everything that happens in that account to the degree of 25%.

For example, he&#039;s only affected to the extent of 75% of fluctuations in the account value. To ignore that seems to set him up for a different risk/return profile than intended.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Dylan, you say that &#8220;the detriment is multiple decades of actual exposure to a different risk/return profile than what was actually intended.&#8221;</p>
<p>As far as I can tell, that&#8217;s precisely the detriment of <i>not</i> tax adjusting.</p>
<p>To me, if an investor expects a 25% tax bracket in retirement, then that means that he only benefits to the extent of 75% of the assets in his 401k. It seems to me that it follows that he must adjust everything that happens in that account to the degree of 25%.</p>
<p>For example, he&#8217;s only affected to the extent of 75% of fluctuations in the account value. To ignore that seems to set him up for a different risk/return profile than intended.</p>
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		<title>By: Dylan</title>
		<link>http://www.obliviousinvestor.com/tax-adjusted-asset-allocation/comment-page-1/#comment-2191</link>
		<dc:creator>Dylan</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 07 Aug 2009 16:40:50 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.obliviousinvestor.com/?p=5014#comment-2191</guid>
		<description>&quot;to minimize to assist&quot; should just be &quot;to assist.&quot;  Two thoughts collided and neither correctly emerged :)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;to minimize to assist&#8221; should just be &#8220;to assist.&#8221;  Two thoughts collided and neither correctly emerged <img src='http://www.obliviousinvestor.com/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_smile.gif' alt=':)' class='wp-smiley' /> </p>
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		<title>By: Dylan</title>
		<link>http://www.obliviousinvestor.com/tax-adjusted-asset-allocation/comment-page-1/#comment-2190</link>
		<dc:creator>Dylan</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 07 Aug 2009 16:37:35 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.obliviousinvestor.com/?p=5014#comment-2190</guid>
		<description>Let me try to approach this from another, more practical angle.  Hopefully, we all agree that asset allocation has the greatest influence on long-term returns.  Many folks may start out in their 20s or 30s with a majority stock allocation, investing and not withdrawing.  As the decades pass, they may scale back their equity allocation once they no longer benefit from as much equity exposure.  By the time they begin taking distributions from tax-deferred accounts (and paying some taxes) in their 60s or 70s, they may very likely have  minority stock allocation.  If, along the way, they constantly discounted tax-deferred money and grossed up the asset class allocation implemented with that money, they will have spent a half-century, give or take, with a different risk/return profile than actually desired (likely more conservative because bonds are favored in the tax-deferred account). 

But it doesn&#039;t stop there.  Whether or not they use a &quot;tax-adjusted&quot; allocation, they will still have to pay the taxes on distributions from the tax deferred accounts (each distribution will likely be only a small amount relative to the total balance).  Assuming the amount of the distribution is the same in either approach, the taxes will also be the same.  If they are diligent in rebalancing, even using the cash out-flow to minimize to assist, they can maintain their desired target allocation post distribution.  So the potential for a few more decades of experiencing the pre-tax risks and rewards of the adjusted allocation continues.  So where exactly is the benefit of adjusting the allocation for tax-deferred assets?  The detriment is multiple decades of actual exposure to a different risk/return profile than what was actually intended.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Let me try to approach this from another, more practical angle.  Hopefully, we all agree that asset allocation has the greatest influence on long-term returns.  Many folks may start out in their 20s or 30s with a majority stock allocation, investing and not withdrawing.  As the decades pass, they may scale back their equity allocation once they no longer benefit from as much equity exposure.  By the time they begin taking distributions from tax-deferred accounts (and paying some taxes) in their 60s or 70s, they may very likely have  minority stock allocation.  If, along the way, they constantly discounted tax-deferred money and grossed up the asset class allocation implemented with that money, they will have spent a half-century, give or take, with a different risk/return profile than actually desired (likely more conservative because bonds are favored in the tax-deferred account). </p>
<p>But it doesn&#8217;t stop there.  Whether or not they use a &#8220;tax-adjusted&#8221; allocation, they will still have to pay the taxes on distributions from the tax deferred accounts (each distribution will likely be only a small amount relative to the total balance).  Assuming the amount of the distribution is the same in either approach, the taxes will also be the same.  If they are diligent in rebalancing, even using the cash out-flow to minimize to assist, they can maintain their desired target allocation post distribution.  So the potential for a few more decades of experiencing the pre-tax risks and rewards of the adjusted allocation continues.  So where exactly is the benefit of adjusting the allocation for tax-deferred assets?  The detriment is multiple decades of actual exposure to a different risk/return profile than what was actually intended.</p>
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		<title>By: Steve</title>
		<link>http://www.obliviousinvestor.com/tax-adjusted-asset-allocation/comment-page-1/#comment-2188</link>
		<dc:creator>Steve</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 07 Aug 2009 14:03:14 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.obliviousinvestor.com/?p=5014#comment-2188</guid>
		<description>It&#039;s a pretty complicated issue.  Consider just allocation between a Roth and taxable accounts.  On the one hand, I want my best performers (probably stocks) to be in the Roth.  On the other hand, I want the bonds to be in the Roth because they are tax inefficient. 

Then there&#039;s the dilemma about where to hold emerging markets stocks.  Assume we have a hunch EM stocks will outperform.  To avoid capital gains, hold them in the Roth.  But to claim foreign tax deduction, you want them in the taxable.

Throw in a 401k, a few more securities, and perhaps limited investment options in some accounts, and it all gets very complicated.  If someone could show scenarios where one strategy is clearly preferred over another, that might be useful.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>It&#8217;s a pretty complicated issue.  Consider just allocation between a Roth and taxable accounts.  On the one hand, I want my best performers (probably stocks) to be in the Roth.  On the other hand, I want the bonds to be in the Roth because they are tax inefficient. </p>
<p>Then there&#8217;s the dilemma about where to hold emerging markets stocks.  Assume we have a hunch EM stocks will outperform.  To avoid capital gains, hold them in the Roth.  But to claim foreign tax deduction, you want them in the taxable.</p>
<p>Throw in a 401k, a few more securities, and perhaps limited investment options in some accounts, and it all gets very complicated.  If someone could show scenarios where one strategy is clearly preferred over another, that might be useful.</p>
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		<title>By: Mike</title>
		<link>http://www.obliviousinvestor.com/tax-adjusted-asset-allocation/comment-page-1/#comment-2185</link>
		<dc:creator>Mike</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 06 Aug 2009 21:33:33 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.obliviousinvestor.com/?p=5014#comment-2185</guid>
		<description>After receiving a little disagreement here, I went to the Bogleheads forum and asked their thoughts on the matter.  In case anybody is curious, the thread can be found here: http://www.bogleheads.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=41345

Also, one Mike P shared this link from the Bogleheads wiki: http://www.bogleheads.org/wiki/Tax-Adjusted_Asset_Allocation</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>After receiving a little disagreement here, I went to the Bogleheads forum and asked their thoughts on the matter.  In case anybody is curious, the thread can be found here: <a href="http://www.bogleheads.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=41345" rel="nofollow">http://www.bogleheads.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=41345</a></p>
<p>Also, one Mike P shared this link from the Bogleheads wiki: <a href="http://www.bogleheads.org/wiki/Tax-Adjusted_Asset_Allocation" rel="nofollow">http://www.bogleheads.org/wiki/Tax-Adjusted_Asset_Allocation</a></p>
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		<title>By: Dylan</title>
		<link>http://www.obliviousinvestor.com/tax-adjusted-asset-allocation/comment-page-1/#comment-2183</link>
		<dc:creator>Dylan</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 06 Aug 2009 16:18:10 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.obliviousinvestor.com/?p=5014#comment-2183</guid>
		<description>I don&#039;t disagree with the concept that the value of a tax deferred account is not equal to its purchasing power because of the deferred tax liability.  But this should not cause you to gross up asset classes because they are implemented in such accounts over those implemented in other accounts.

Here is another way to look at it using the example in the post.  The total portfolio is worth $100,000, but after-tax it is only worth $90,000.  You can apply you 60/40 allocation to the $90k that is yours and then apply it again to the $10K that is Uncle Sam&#039;s.  &lt;i&gt;Then&lt;/i&gt; implement both of those allocations in the most favorable, tax-advantaged accounts.  Some of Uncle Sam&#039;s money will be invested in stocks in the taxable account, but so what?  If you think it matters, lay it out on a spreadsheet, and you will see it does not.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I don&#8217;t disagree with the concept that the value of a tax deferred account is not equal to its purchasing power because of the deferred tax liability.  But this should not cause you to gross up asset classes because they are implemented in such accounts over those implemented in other accounts.</p>
<p>Here is another way to look at it using the example in the post.  The total portfolio is worth $100,000, but after-tax it is only worth $90,000.  You can apply you 60/40 allocation to the $90k that is yours and then apply it again to the $10K that is Uncle Sam&#8217;s.  <i>Then</i> implement both of those allocations in the most favorable, tax-advantaged accounts.  Some of Uncle Sam&#8217;s money will be invested in stocks in the taxable account, but so what?  If you think it matters, lay it out on a spreadsheet, and you will see it does not.</p>
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		<title>By: JL</title>
		<link>http://www.obliviousinvestor.com/tax-adjusted-asset-allocation/comment-page-1/#comment-2182</link>
		<dc:creator>JL</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 06 Aug 2009 15:19:51 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.obliviousinvestor.com/?p=5014#comment-2182</guid>
		<description>Put another way, when we look at our 401(k) balance we tend to focus on the value of the assets listed in the statement; we also need to include the associated tax liability that doesn&#039;t appear in any statement</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Put another way, when we look at our 401(k) balance we tend to focus on the value of the assets listed in the statement; we also need to include the associated tax liability that doesn&#8217;t appear in any statement</p>
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		<title>By: The Incidental Economist</title>
		<link>http://www.obliviousinvestor.com/tax-adjusted-asset-allocation/comment-page-1/#comment-2181</link>
		<dc:creator>The Incidental Economist</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 06 Aug 2009 15:11:58 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.obliviousinvestor.com/?p=5014#comment-2181</guid>
		<description>It is a less non-issue than that. One can reallocate within the funds at the time of withdrawal. The tax can appear to be spread evenly across the asset classes even if the funds in the taxed account hadn&#039;t been allocated that way. I think you&#039;re saying this, I&#039;m just re-saying it.

To sum up, in a round-a-bout way I think the new idea in our exchange is that there is a balance between the two dimensions of constraints: AA and taxes. If both post a significant issue for one or another vehicle, then one needs to do some thinking. Juicing the account by the tax rate may be foolish (my 99% example).</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>It is a less non-issue than that. One can reallocate within the funds at the time of withdrawal. The tax can appear to be spread evenly across the asset classes even if the funds in the taxed account hadn&#8217;t been allocated that way. I think you&#8217;re saying this, I&#8217;m just re-saying it.</p>
<p>To sum up, in a round-a-bout way I think the new idea in our exchange is that there is a balance between the two dimensions of constraints: AA and taxes. If both post a significant issue for one or another vehicle, then one needs to do some thinking. Juicing the account by the tax rate may be foolish (my 99% example).</p>
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		<title>By: Mike</title>
		<link>http://www.obliviousinvestor.com/tax-adjusted-asset-allocation/comment-page-1/#comment-2180</link>
		<dc:creator>Mike</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 06 Aug 2009 15:01:30 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>Right, if an investor has suitable investment options in each account and chooses to invest in each account with a similar asset allocation, it&#039;s a complete non-issue.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Right, if an investor has suitable investment options in each account and chooses to invest in each account with a similar asset allocation, it&#8217;s a complete non-issue.</p>
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