<?xml version="1.0" encoding="UTF-8"?><rss version="2.0"
	xmlns:content="http://purl.org/rss/1.0/modules/content/"
	xmlns:dc="http://purl.org/dc/elements/1.1/"
	xmlns:atom="http://www.w3.org/2005/Atom"
	xmlns:sy="http://purl.org/rss/1.0/modules/syndication/"
		>
<channel>
	<title>Comments on: Giving Up on Buy and Hold Indexing</title>
	<atom:link href="http://www.obliviousinvestor.com/giving-up-on-buy-and-hold-indexing/feed/" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://www.obliviousinvestor.com/giving-up-on-buy-and-hold-indexing/</link>
	<description>Investing Blog: The Oblivious Investor</description>
	<lastBuildDate>Tue, 07 Feb 2012 17:04:11 +0000</lastBuildDate>
	<sy:updatePeriod>hourly</sy:updatePeriod>
	<sy:updateFrequency>1</sy:updateFrequency>
	<generator>http://wordpress.org/?v=3.3.1</generator>
	<item>
		<title>By: pkora94</title>
		<link>http://www.obliviousinvestor.com/giving-up-on-buy-and-hold-indexing/comment-page-1/#comment-1777</link>
		<dc:creator>pkora94</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 07 Jul 2009 14:06:10 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.obliviousinvestor.com/?p=4451#comment-1777</guid>
		<description>Buy and holding stocks in an economy that is not likely to grow for years mean your stock portfolio will give you the same thing, punitive returns. Good quality stocks paying you a dividend with no potential of growth, holding an index fund that will mirror poor economic growth for years does not seem the way to go in this new arena of investing. Passive investing and buying and holding just mean that you are going to get another zero on your investments in 10 years.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Buy and holding stocks in an economy that is not likely to grow for years mean your stock portfolio will give you the same thing, punitive returns. Good quality stocks paying you a dividend with no potential of growth, holding an index fund that will mirror poor economic growth for years does not seem the way to go in this new arena of investing. Passive investing and buying and holding just mean that you are going to get another zero on your investments in 10 years.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Swamproot</title>
		<link>http://www.obliviousinvestor.com/giving-up-on-buy-and-hold-indexing/comment-page-1/#comment-1558</link>
		<dc:creator>Swamproot</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 04 Jun 2009 22:36:52 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.obliviousinvestor.com/?p=4451#comment-1558</guid>
		<description>I&#039;ve been hearing/reading a lot about the death of &quot;buy and hold&quot;.   But it was my understanding that if you are 100% in stocks there is a great likelihood that at some point over a thirty year period where you will lose 50% of your portfolio&#039;s value.  I learned that &quot;rule&quot; years ago, and lo and behold 2008 comes along and that is exactly what happened.  To me that was not proof that it didn&#039;t work, it was vindication that its advocates  knew what they were talking about. 

If I had been close to retirement, I wouldn&#039;t have been so heavily allocated in equities, that&#039;s another thing the B&amp;H advocates say.   While I was disgusted that the money I put in my IRA seemed to disappear almost as soon as I put it in, I kept at it, and my biggest losers were averaged enough by new contributions that they are now my biggest gainers.

I believe a B&amp;H strategy will work in the long run.   But I will say that in my taxable account, which I beefed up tremendously in the downturn, I only do ETFs so I can have stop loss orders on them, and I am not scared to take a profit,  pay The Man his cut, and run.  :-)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;ve been hearing/reading a lot about the death of &#8220;buy and hold&#8221;.   But it was my understanding that if you are 100% in stocks there is a great likelihood that at some point over a thirty year period where you will lose 50% of your portfolio&#8217;s value.  I learned that &#8220;rule&#8221; years ago, and lo and behold 2008 comes along and that is exactly what happened.  To me that was not proof that it didn&#8217;t work, it was vindication that its advocates  knew what they were talking about. </p>
<p>If I had been close to retirement, I wouldn&#8217;t have been so heavily allocated in equities, that&#8217;s another thing the B&amp;H advocates say.   While I was disgusted that the money I put in my IRA seemed to disappear almost as soon as I put it in, I kept at it, and my biggest losers were averaged enough by new contributions that they are now my biggest gainers.</p>
<p>I believe a B&amp;H strategy will work in the long run.   But I will say that in my taxable account, which I beefed up tremendously in the downturn, I only do ETFs so I can have stop loss orders on them, and I am not scared to take a profit,  pay The Man his cut, and run.  <img src='http://www.obliviousinvestor.com/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_smile.gif' alt=':-)' class='wp-smiley' /> </p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Mark Wolfinger</title>
		<link>http://www.obliviousinvestor.com/giving-up-on-buy-and-hold-indexing/comment-page-1/#comment-1554</link>
		<dc:creator>Mark Wolfinger</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 04 Jun 2009 03:12:54 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.obliviousinvestor.com/?p=4451#comment-1554</guid>
		<description>&quot;increased complexity is obviously not a good thing.&quot;

I can agree with that.  But what if increased complexity made a significant increase in annualized returns?

I believe that preventing disasters is all that&#039;s necessary for long-term wealth.  But that&#039;s okay - we don&#039;t have to agree.  There is no single best way to handle one&#039;s money.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;increased complexity is obviously not a good thing.&#8221;</p>
<p>I can agree with that.  But what if increased complexity made a significant increase in annualized returns?</p>
<p>I believe that preventing disasters is all that&#8217;s necessary for long-term wealth.  But that&#8217;s okay &#8211; we don&#8217;t have to agree.  There is no single best way to handle one&#8217;s money.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Mike</title>
		<link>http://www.obliviousinvestor.com/giving-up-on-buy-and-hold-indexing/comment-page-1/#comment-1553</link>
		<dc:creator>Mike</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 04 Jun 2009 02:36:09 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.obliviousinvestor.com/?p=4451#comment-1553</guid>
		<description>Mark: I&#039;d still lump that idea in with &quot;outsmarting the market.&quot;

In order for an options strategy (collars included) to earn a greater return at a given level of risk than, say, a simple stock/bond allocation, the options you&#039;re buying must be underpriced and/or the options you&#039;re selling must be overpriced.

For reference, I&#039;m not saying that options strategies are a bad idea, per se. I&#039;ve just never seen anyone make a compelling case that they reduce risk at smaller cost to expected return than simply increasing the fixed income or cash allocations in a portfolio. Meanwhile, getting involved in options certainly increases the complexity level over simply controlling risk via asset allocation, and, all else being equal, increased complexity is obviously not a good thing.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Mark: I&#8217;d still lump that idea in with &#8220;outsmarting the market.&#8221;</p>
<p>In order for an options strategy (collars included) to earn a greater return at a given level of risk than, say, a simple stock/bond allocation, the options you&#8217;re buying must be underpriced and/or the options you&#8217;re selling must be overpriced.</p>
<p>For reference, I&#8217;m not saying that options strategies are a bad idea, per se. I&#8217;ve just never seen anyone make a compelling case that they reduce risk at smaller cost to expected return than simply increasing the fixed income or cash allocations in a portfolio. Meanwhile, getting involved in options certainly increases the complexity level over simply controlling risk via asset allocation, and, all else being equal, increased complexity is obviously not a good thing.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Mark Wolfinger</title>
		<link>http://www.obliviousinvestor.com/giving-up-on-buy-and-hold-indexing/comment-page-1/#comment-1552</link>
		<dc:creator>Mark Wolfinger</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 04 Jun 2009 02:28:37 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.obliviousinvestor.com/?p=4451#comment-1552</guid>
		<description>@MyJourney

The data is irrefutable: professional money managers cannot outperform the markets on a consistent basis.  All they do is tack fees onto that below average performance. 

One of the sad truths on Wall Street is that the salespeople are out for themselves.  Sure there the honest minority, who understand and respect the meaning of a fiduciary responsibility, but those are difficult to find.  

As long as there is a conflict of interest - and charging fees is that conflict - the customer is not going to be well served by professionals.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@MyJourney</p>
<p>The data is irrefutable: professional money managers cannot outperform the markets on a consistent basis.  All they do is tack fees onto that below average performance. </p>
<p>One of the sad truths on Wall Street is that the salespeople are out for themselves.  Sure there the honest minority, who understand and respect the meaning of a fiduciary responsibility, but those are difficult to find.  </p>
<p>As long as there is a conflict of interest &#8211; and charging fees is that conflict &#8211; the customer is not going to be well served by professionals.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Mark Wolfinger</title>
		<link>http://www.obliviousinvestor.com/giving-up-on-buy-and-hold-indexing/comment-page-1/#comment-1551</link>
		<dc:creator>Mark Wolfinger</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 04 Jun 2009 02:22:10 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.obliviousinvestor.com/?p=4451#comment-1551</guid>
		<description>You have nice arguments aginsts the assumed premises.  But your premises are wrong.

&quot;To be able to earn a return better than that provided by a long-term, buy &amp; hold indexing strategy, we have to either:  get lucky, or  outsmart the market in some way:
   1. picking stocks (or other individual securities), or
   2. timing the market&quot;

First you do not have to get lucky or outsmart the market.  All you have to do is avoid debacles.  Profits are good.  Small losses are acceptable.  Killer losses destroy the best laid plans.

Second, there is no need to pick stocks or time the market.  If you want passive investments, go for it.  No need to do anything different when choosing investments.

By adopting conservative option strategies (specifically the collar), an investor can earn good, but limited, profits when the markets rise;  earn a small profit when the markets are stagnant; lose a small amount when the markets fall; and still have small losses when the markets tumble.  Those tumbles don&#039;t occur that frequently, but are devastating when they do.  It&#039;s easy to get complacent (technology bubble) when markets are rising.

Owning portfolio insurance is a smart idea. It means the investor is prepared, not hoping to get lucky.

There is no reason not to learn how options work.  Then - and only then - can an investor make the decision that &#039;using options is not for me.&#039;

I appreciate the opportunity to present my thoughts here.  Thank you.

http://blog.mdwoptions.com/options_for_rookies/2008/07/example-of-a-co.html</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>You have nice arguments aginsts the assumed premises.  But your premises are wrong.</p>
<p>&#8220;To be able to earn a return better than that provided by a long-term, buy &amp; hold indexing strategy, we have to either:  get lucky, or  outsmart the market in some way:<br />
   1. picking stocks (or other individual securities), or<br />
   2. timing the market&#8221;</p>
<p>First you do not have to get lucky or outsmart the market.  All you have to do is avoid debacles.  Profits are good.  Small losses are acceptable.  Killer losses destroy the best laid plans.</p>
<p>Second, there is no need to pick stocks or time the market.  If you want passive investments, go for it.  No need to do anything different when choosing investments.</p>
<p>By adopting conservative option strategies (specifically the collar), an investor can earn good, but limited, profits when the markets rise;  earn a small profit when the markets are stagnant; lose a small amount when the markets fall; and still have small losses when the markets tumble.  Those tumbles don&#8217;t occur that frequently, but are devastating when they do.  It&#8217;s easy to get complacent (technology bubble) when markets are rising.</p>
<p>Owning portfolio insurance is a smart idea. It means the investor is prepared, not hoping to get lucky.</p>
<p>There is no reason not to learn how options work.  Then &#8211; and only then &#8211; can an investor make the decision that &#8216;using options is not for me.&#8217;</p>
<p>I appreciate the opportunity to present my thoughts here.  Thank you.</p>
<p><a href="http://blog.mdwoptions.com/options_for_rookies/2008/07/example-of-a-co.html" rel="nofollow">http://blog.mdwoptions.com/options_for_rookies/2008/07/example-of-a-co.html</a></p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Rob Bennett</title>
		<link>http://www.obliviousinvestor.com/giving-up-on-buy-and-hold-indexing/comment-page-1/#comment-1549</link>
		<dc:creator>Rob Bennett</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 03 Jun 2009 16:50:35 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.obliviousinvestor.com/?p=4451#comment-1549</guid>
		<description>&lt;i&gt;Rob: Yes, I do see (at least a potential) value in adjusting asset allocations as a function of current price levels. &lt;/i&gt;

Thanks for saying that much, Mike. I am grateful.

&lt;i&gt;But to be honest, I see the misinformation spread by the financial services industry (about active management, picking stocks, etc) as a far larger issue. And until that battle is won–which I doubt will ever completely happen–I don’t foresee myself taking on any other issues with my writings.&lt;/i&gt;

I am of course disappointed to hear this. But that&#039;s of course your call.

My take is that it is this way of thinking that puts the good stuff in the Passive model in jeopardy. Ultimately, people are going to go with what they think works. During a wild bull, it was possible to make it look like Passive could work. Now that that&#039;s no longer the case, we&#039;re going to see more and more people coming out and saying the sorts of things that you are noting in this blog entry. My thought is that we have no choice but to fix what is wrong in the Passive model if we hope for the model to survive to help investors of future days.

It&#039;s not by attacking the attackers that we prevail. It&#039;s be taking a good look at the man in the mirror and fixing the things that we really are able to fix. It&#039;s harder work from one way of looking at it. But it&#039;s work that pays big dividends (in my view). My view is that it is those of us who are seeking to fix the Passive model who are the true Bogleheads.

Rob</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><i>Rob: Yes, I do see (at least a potential) value in adjusting asset allocations as a function of current price levels. </i></p>
<p>Thanks for saying that much, Mike. I am grateful.</p>
<p><i>But to be honest, I see the misinformation spread by the financial services industry (about active management, picking stocks, etc) as a far larger issue. And until that battle is won–which I doubt will ever completely happen–I don’t foresee myself taking on any other issues with my writings.</i></p>
<p>I am of course disappointed to hear this. But that&#8217;s of course your call.</p>
<p>My take is that it is this way of thinking that puts the good stuff in the Passive model in jeopardy. Ultimately, people are going to go with what they think works. During a wild bull, it was possible to make it look like Passive could work. Now that that&#8217;s no longer the case, we&#8217;re going to see more and more people coming out and saying the sorts of things that you are noting in this blog entry. My thought is that we have no choice but to fix what is wrong in the Passive model if we hope for the model to survive to help investors of future days.</p>
<p>It&#8217;s not by attacking the attackers that we prevail. It&#8217;s be taking a good look at the man in the mirror and fixing the things that we really are able to fix. It&#8217;s harder work from one way of looking at it. But it&#8217;s work that pays big dividends (in my view). My view is that it is those of us who are seeking to fix the Passive model who are the true Bogleheads.</p>
<p>Rob</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Niklas Smith</title>
		<link>http://www.obliviousinvestor.com/giving-up-on-buy-and-hold-indexing/comment-page-1/#comment-1548</link>
		<dc:creator>Niklas Smith</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 03 Jun 2009 16:09:01 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.obliviousinvestor.com/?p=4451#comment-1548</guid>
		<description>Mike, your argument seems to be similar to what Winston Churchill once said about democracy:  &quot;Many forms of Government have been tried and will be tried in this world of sin and woe. No one pretends that democracy is perfect or all-wise. Indeed, it has been said that democracy is the worst form of government except all those other forms that have been tried from time to time.&quot;

Perhaps passive index investing is the worst form of investing apart from all those other forms that have been tried from time to time? (Which actually makes it rather good, like democracy!)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Mike, your argument seems to be similar to what Winston Churchill once said about democracy:  &#8220;Many forms of Government have been tried and will be tried in this world of sin and woe. No one pretends that democracy is perfect or all-wise. Indeed, it has been said that democracy is the worst form of government except all those other forms that have been tried from time to time.&#8221;</p>
<p>Perhaps passive index investing is the worst form of investing apart from all those other forms that have been tried from time to time? (Which actually makes it rather good, like democracy!)</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Dave C.</title>
		<link>http://www.obliviousinvestor.com/giving-up-on-buy-and-hold-indexing/comment-page-1/#comment-1547</link>
		<dc:creator>Dave C.</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 03 Jun 2009 15:19:15 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.obliviousinvestor.com/?p=4451#comment-1547</guid>
		<description>Regarding professionals with all the info-
This assumes the conclusion that having more info is an advantage. Psychological studies have shown that test subjects perform more poorly in analytical tasks when they are exposed to increasing levels of and varieties of information about a query.

Based on what I&#039;ve read from Graham and Zweig, &quot;buy and hold&quot; seems to work when you buy the security at a greatly undervalued price and when the company provides consistent dividends.

To assume that securities can never be undervalued (EMH) is to say that investors are never irrational or acting on fear or herd mentality.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Regarding professionals with all the info-<br />
This assumes the conclusion that having more info is an advantage. Psychological studies have shown that test subjects perform more poorly in analytical tasks when they are exposed to increasing levels of and varieties of information about a query.</p>
<p>Based on what I&#8217;ve read from Graham and Zweig, &#8220;buy and hold&#8221; seems to work when you buy the security at a greatly undervalued price and when the company provides consistent dividends.</p>
<p>To assume that securities can never be undervalued (EMH) is to say that investors are never irrational or acting on fear or herd mentality.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Welath Pilgrim</title>
		<link>http://www.obliviousinvestor.com/giving-up-on-buy-and-hold-indexing/comment-page-1/#comment-1546</link>
		<dc:creator>Welath Pilgrim</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 03 Jun 2009 15:14:54 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.obliviousinvestor.com/?p=4451#comment-1546</guid>
		<description>What upsets me is the &quot;experts&quot; often act like babies.

Any approach to investing will involved periods of poor performance.  I am not a market timer but I&#039;m not a buy and hold either.

My strategy has its pros and cons - like anything else in life.  The issue is that folks hop around looking for the &quot;perfect&quot; approach...and end up in Bernie Madoff&#039;s office.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>What upsets me is the &#8220;experts&#8221; often act like babies.</p>
<p>Any approach to investing will involved periods of poor performance.  I am not a market timer but I&#8217;m not a buy and hold either.</p>
<p>My strategy has its pros and cons &#8211; like anything else in life.  The issue is that folks hop around looking for the &#8220;perfect&#8221; approach&#8230;and end up in Bernie Madoff&#8217;s office.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
</channel>
</rss>

